<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=gb2312">
<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 14 (filtered medium)"><base href="x-msg://1641/"><!--[if !mso]><style>v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</style><![endif]--><style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Helvetica;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Wingdings;
panose-1:5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}
@font-face
{font-family:SimSun;
panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1;}
@font-face
{font-family:SimSun;
panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:SimSun;
panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
color:black;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
pre
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"HTML \9884\8BBE\683C\5F0F Char";
margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New";
color:black;}
p.MsoAcetate, li.MsoAcetate, div.MsoAcetate
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"\6279\6CE8\6846\6587\672C Char";
margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
color:black;}
span.apple-converted-space
{mso-style-name:apple-converted-space;}
span.HTMLChar
{mso-style-name:"HTML \9884\8BBE\683C\5F0F Char";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:"HTML \9884\8BBE\683C\5F0F";
font-family:"Courier New";
color:black;}
span.EmailStyle22
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
span.Char
{mso-style-name:"\6279\6CE8\6846\6587\672C Char";
mso-style-priority:99;
mso-style-link:\6279\6CE8\6846\6587\672C;
font-family:SimSun;
color:black;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page WordSection1
{size:612.0pt 792.0pt;
margin:72.0pt 90.0pt 72.0pt 90.0pt;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
/* List Definitions */
@list l0
{mso-list-id:608514681;
mso-list-template-ids:270449310;}
@list l0:level1
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:\F0B7;
mso-level-tab-stop:36.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Symbol;}
@list l0:level2
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:o;
mso-level-tab-stop:72.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New";
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";}
@list l0:level3
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:\F0A7;
mso-level-tab-stop:108.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Wingdings;}
@list l0:level4
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:\F0A7;
mso-level-tab-stop:144.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Wingdings;}
@list l0:level5
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:\F0A7;
mso-level-tab-stop:180.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Wingdings;}
@list l0:level6
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:\F0A7;
mso-level-tab-stop:216.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Wingdings;}
@list l0:level7
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:\F0A7;
mso-level-tab-stop:252.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Wingdings;}
@list l0:level8
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:\F0A7;
mso-level-tab-stop:288.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Wingdings;}
@list l0:level9
{mso-level-number-format:bullet;
mso-level-text:\F0A7;
mso-level-tab-stop:324.0pt;
mso-level-number-position:left;
text-indent:-18.0pt;
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Wingdings;}
ol
{margin-bottom:0cm;}
ul
{margin-bottom:0cm;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=white lang=ZH-CN link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Dear Professors/Dr.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>This is the final call for papers (see attachment) for the 5th International Conference on Cognitive Neurodynamics 2015 (ICCN2015). The Conference will be hosted by East China University of Science and Technology (ECUST) in Sanya, China from June 3 to 7, 2015. Due to the effort of the Chairmen and the supports from each committee members of ICCN2015, we proudly announced that ICCN2015 has organized 12 plenary lectures and 21 mini-symposiums. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The original deadline for paper submission is approaching. Based on requires of many authors, we have extended the deadline for paper submission to January 31, 2015. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>1. The authors should submit the full paper (not only the abstract) to the conference through “Online Paper Submission System”.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>2. Submitted papers should be no longer than 6 A4 pages (single spaced). The papers will be published in the conference proceeding of “Advances in Cognitive Neurodynamics” by Springer and indexed by EI and ISTP. The authors have to pay 50US$ for each extra page.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>3. Submitted papers should be prepared in the same paper format using LNCS Latex 2 template or Word template. You can download these templates from the conference website.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>4. We suggest a domestic transferring in Beijing, Shanghai or Guangzhou, or an international transferring in Hongkong for the foreign participants from the areas that have no direct flight to Sanya airport.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>5. Please check the latest information on the website of ICCN2015 (<a href="http://iccn2015.ecust.edu.cn">http://iccn2015.ecust.edu.cn</a>).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Your paper contributions are welcome and appreciated sincerely.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>If you have any problem, please do not hesitate to contact Professor Pan Xiaochuan pxc@ecust.edu.cn, or Chris Wang chriswang_520@hotmail.com.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Sincerely yours,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Rubin Wang, Dr. Prof.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Editor-in-Chief of Cognitive Neurodynamics<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Pan Xiaochuan, Dr. Prof.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Managing Editor of Cognitive Neurodynamics<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>East China University of Science and Technology (ECUST) Shanghai, China<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><a name="_MailEndCompose"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></a></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun;color:windowtext'>发件人<span lang=EN-US>:</span></span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun;color:windowtext'> Juyang Weng [mailto:weng@cse.msu.edu] <br></span><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun;color:windowtext'>发送时间<span lang=EN-US>:</span></span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun;color:windowtext'> 2013</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun;color:windowtext'>年<span lang=EN-US>2</span>月<span lang=EN-US>18</span>日<span lang=EN-US> 9:00<br></span><b>收件人<span lang=EN-US>:</span></b><span lang=EN-US> hans kuijper<br></span><b>抄送<span lang=EN-US>:</span></b><span lang=EN-US> Professor Ron Sun; Michael A. Arbib; Michael Jordan; Michael M. Merzenich; James Olds; Kim Plunkett; Tomaso Poggio; Terry Sejnowski; Linda Smith; Mriganka Sur; Jianda Han; Minho Lee; Danil Prokhorov; Katharina Rohlfing; Matthew Schlesinger; Hiroaki Wagatsuma; Jochen Triesch; Frank S. Ravitch; George Stockman; Fathi M Salem; Yang Wang; Alan Beretta; Lynwood Clemens; Kathy Steece-Collier; David C. Zhu; Andrea Bozoki; Jay Choi; Steve Kozlowski; Minoru Asada; Christian Balkenius; James A. Bednar; Ho Seng Beng; Luis Bettencourt; C. Titus Brown; Kwok Fook Kay Kenneth; Shantanu Chakrabartty; Yoonsuck Choe; Gedeon De</span>á<span lang=EN-US>k; Qunfeng Dong; Kenji Doya; Wlodzislaw Duch; Jianfeng Feng; Wulfram Gerstner; Ben Goertzel; William Hartmann; Christoph S. Herrmann; Zhengping Ji; Yaochu Jin; Nik Kasabov; Jun Zhang; Hideki Kozima; Jeff Krichmar; Zhengyou Zhang; Stephen Levinson; Jack Lipton; Pinaki Mazumder; Yan Meng; Ali Minai; Joseph Mitola; Jun Miao; Javier R. Movellan; Andrew Y. Ng; Pierre-Yves Oudeyer; Karim Oweiss; Leonid Perlovsky; Jiaguo Qi; Brandon Rohrer; Zhiqiang Tang; Si Wu; Stefan Schaal; Juergen Schmidhuber; Thomas Shultz; Margaret Semrud-Clickeman; Barbara Shinn-Cunningham; Janusz Starzyk; Olaf Sporns; David Fogel; Gary Fogel; Jun Tani; Shuqing Zeng; Stan Franklin; Ming Xie; Xin Yao; Peter Dayan; John K Tsotsos; Christopher M. Brown; Sebastian Thrun; Daniel Wolpert; Ronald Arkin; DeLiang Wang; Derong Liu; Risto Miikkulainen; Gary Yen; Takeo Kanade; Tan Kay Chen; Tianzi Jiang; Mitsuo Kawato; Manabu Tanifuji; Andrew Parker; Jeff Elman; Stevan Harnad; Nikos Papanikolopoulos; Shigeki Sugano; Stefan Mozar; William Lumpkins; Stephen Dukes; Seong-Whan Lee; Claire Cardie; Dieter Fox; Henry Kautz; Manuela M. Veloso; Maja J. Mataric; Stephen Marcus; Tieniu Tan; Tiande Shou; Larry Abbott; Stan Z. Li; Asim Roy; Eric Kandel; Yongchun Yu; Yao Lu; Thomas Behnisch; 0570024@fudan.edu.cn; 07300700142@fudan.edu.cn; 11210700135@fudan.edu.cn; Jie Zhang; Lei Tong; lidake@163.com; seanhe2007@gmail.com; wbsheng@fudan.edu.cn; yyao@fudan.edu.cn; Keith Kendrick; Rubing Wang; Xingang Zhao; Zijiang He; Lihua Yang; Jianbo Xiu; bmilist; Cha Zhang; James von Ehr II; kaz.kawamura@vanderbilt.edu; broderick@med.cuny.edu; lfcahill@uci.edu; cecarr@umd.edu; frances.chance@gmail.com; anjan@mail.med.upenn.edu; clegg@lifesci.ucsb.edu; febo@ufl.edu; robert.fyffe@wright.edu; grafton@psych.ucsb.edu; rafagut@cinvestav.mx; heaton@mbi.ufl.edu; frederic.isel@parisdescartes.fr; zhonglin@usc.edu; le.ma@usc.edu; ma@lifesci.ucsb.edu; meriney@pitt.edu; mposner@darkwing.uoregon.edu; rataylor@umn.edu; Peter Walla; weimbs@lifesci.ucsb.edu; mahzarin_banaji@harvard.edu; bar@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu; sb205@cam.ac.uk; bruceb@cats.ucsc.edu; catania@umbc.edu; wim_crusio@yahoo.com; se37@cornell.edu; dfalk@fsu.edu; c.heyes@ucl.ac.uk; a.karmiloff-smith@bbk.ac.uk; massimo@email.arizona.edu; Stephanie Preston; zenon@ruccs.rutgers.edu; laurie.santos@yale.edu; saxe@mit.edu; nestor@duke.edu; omega@umn.edu; amiri001@umn.edu; chafe001@umn.edu; lewis093@umn.edu; leuth004@umn.edu; mcole@ucsd.edu; alac@ucsd.edu; gjbalzano@ucsd.edu; dbaxter@ucsd.edu; dewilson@ucsd.edu; thumphries@ucsd.edu; jalevin@ucsd.edu; cpadden@ucsd.edu; christosims@ucsd.edu; ovasquez@ucsd.edu; adele@crl.ucsd.edu; barrett@anthro.ucla.edu; bill@mechanism.ucsd.edu; nick.chater@wbs.ac.uk; andy.clark@ed.ac.uk; k.frankish@gmail.com; ray.jackendoff@tufts.edu; lalibby@ucdavis.edu; ujanel@email.unc.edu; m.oaksford@bbk.ac.uk; pacherie@ens.fr; jesse@subcortex.com; wramsey@unlv.edu; cranganath@ucdavis.edu; shettle@psych.utoronto.ca; standage@queensu.ca; neil.stewart@warwick.ac.uk; pthagard@uwaterloo.ca; tt@cs.dal.ca; lmewong@ucdavis.edu; bvonecka@risd.edu; jpoland@risd.edu; dughof@cogsci.indiana.edu; eagleman@bcm.edu; bruce.wexler@yale.edu; shan@pku.edu.cn; zerubave@rci.rutgers.edu; Casey O'Callaghan; max.coltheart@mq.edu.au; Roger Penrose<br></span><b>主题<span lang=EN-US>:</span></b><span lang=EN-US> Re: computational terms as a sign of maturity<o:p></o:p></span></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>Dear Hans,<br><br>Thank you very much for your points. <br><br>I have a basic disagreement with </span><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Roger Penrose. I am now giving him a CC so that he can join our discussion. Prof. Penrose, please let me know if you like to be dropped from this discussion. <br><br>I suggest that Prof. Roger Penrose should learn neuroscience first and then re-examine his positions.<br><br>In particular, the Godel's incompleteness theory that he cited has a fundamental problem. Kurt Godel proved his incompleteness theory in 1931. I guess that his idea was inspired from a paradox that <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertrand_Russell" title="Bertrand Russell">Bertrand Russell</a> discovered in 1901, now called Russell's paradox:</span><span lang=EN-US><br></span><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><img border=0 width=387 height=20 id="_x0000_i1025" src="cid:image001.png@01D01899.1F0CA650" alt="\text{let } R = \{ x \mid x \not \in x \}
\text{, then } R \in R \iff R \not \in R"><br>Put in an intuitive way, Russell defined a set so that a particular logic question cannot be answered as simply yes or no. Kurt Godel did a similarly thing.<br><br>Think about a simpler version of the paradox: I define the set of my sisters based on the condition that the person is NOT my sister. Then, "is the person my sister?" cannot be answered. <br><br>There are many ways to object to Roger Penrose's position. My first objection could be: "In the Brain's self-organization principles: there is no absolutely right or wrong" as I argued in <br><a href="http://www.brain-mind-magazine.org/read.php?file=BMM-V1-N2-paper5-Obama.pdf#view">The 2nd Open Letter to the US President Obama: Why US Should Be Friendly with Every Government?</a> <br>In other words, there is no absolute yes or no answer for a brain. For any natural-world question, two brains can come up with two different answers: one answers yes and the other no. Therefore, mathematical logic seems too simple and too rigid as a tool for studying brain-mind. <br><br>Your questions are great ones. I am afraid that not all my answers below are correct or agreeably by many experts on this email list. Just for the purpose of discussion, I try to give my response. Let me know if I am wrong. You all are welcome to BMI this summer so that we can further our interesting discussion. <br></span><span lang=EN-US><br></span><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>1) Can the mind be modelled directly or only indirectly (via the brain)? If the latter, why? <br> <br>Weng: Yes. Any model of the nature is an approximation, including more basic phenomena described by Newtonian physics. I gave a simplified model about the rise of a mind from a grounded emerging brain in<a href="http://www.brain-mind-institute.org/press.html"> Natural and Artificial Intelligence<br></a></span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>2) Can the the mind (as distinct from the brain) be modelled wholly or only partly? If the latter, why?<br><br>Weng: Only partially, since we humans can never say that we have a complete understanding about the nature. Newtonian physics is an example. An interesting point is then whether we can model to a large degree so that the difference from the nature is not very obvious to us. </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>3) In the ongoing mind-body debate, to which camp do you belong?<br><br>Weng: I think that mind is impossible without the corresponding body. This does not mean that a robot body has to be developed (a designed body seems to be more practical for robots at the current stage of technology). I also belong to an optimistic camp, since the basic principles to give rise to probably the first-order mind seem to be relatively simple. Do not laugh at me at this point. Come to the BMI to convince yourself. </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>4) Do you think we are (very complicated) robots? If so, what makes these robots acting and behaving?<br><br>Weng: Yes, we are "meat robots" in a sense. Five factors made us: (1) environment, (2) sensors, (3) effectors, (4) developmental mechanisms such as those of a cell<br>(I called it developmental program), and (5) how we are taught. Although those cellular mechanisms in (4) are relatively simple, many cells work together to give rise to amazing minds. </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>5) If we are robots, physically determined, where does our sense of liberty, justice or compassion come from?<br><br>Weng: Largely from the above 5 factors, but experience played a critical role. We thought that we have independent minds. But in fact, we do not really. Each individual mind is heavily shaped by the environment, including mother, father, brothers and sisters, and peers. When one says "I want ...", what he wants is largely determined by the environment from which he is raised and the current environmental context. </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>6) In the sentence 'the mind models the mind' subject equals object, right? How can?<br><br>Weng: Great question! That is why understanding one's own mind using one's own mind seems to be one of the last scientific problems facing humanity. Fortunately, humans have spent so much money and resource in studying the nature including human nature. Now, we seem to be very close to solving this mystery "in the first order sense" but in precise computational terms. Yes, brain-mind phenomena can also be simulated and demonstrated by developmental robots (not traditional non-developmental robots). But this demonstration needs resource and time. We need to "raise" our robots like the way we "raise" our children in our human environments. </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>7) If mind and culture are somehow related (I think they are pretty much the same), what could be the relationship between nature (brain) and culture? And would it be (theoretically) possible to formalise this relationship?</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><br>Weng: a mind is what its corresponding brain does. Culture seems to be the common knwoledge and common behaviors among many brains in a society. The physical brains enable the rise of culture after many generations of brains interact with the environment in this world (including other brains and bodies). Like culture, traditions, languages, politics, sense of right or wrong, all emerge from such interactions. Yes, it seems possible to rigorously formalise this relationship theoretically in mathematical terminology. We all can work together along this line. I hope that Prof. Roger Penrose can be convinced one day. <br><br>Just my 2 cents of worth.<br><br>-John<br> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>On 2/17/13 6:07 PM, hans kuijper wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Dear John,</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>I think your point (a science, or discipline, is immature until its phenomena can be explained in computational terms) is debatable. In 'On understanding understanding' (<em><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>International Studies in the Philosophy of Science</span></em>, 11:1 [1997], 7-20), Roger Penrose argues, by use of specific examples, that 'mathematical understanding is something which cannot be modelled in terms of entirely computational procedures'. See also his book <em><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>The Road to Reality: A Complete Guide to the Physical World</span></em>, BCA, 2004, pp. 7-24, 374-378,1027-1045; and his foreword to Hector Zenil (ed.), <em><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>A Computable Universe: Understanding and Exploring Nature as Computation</span></em>, World Scientific, 2013. </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Talking about scientific/computational modelling, I would like to raise the following questions:</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>1) Can the mind be modelled directly or only indirectly (via the brain)? If the latter, why? </span><span lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>2) Can the the mind (as distinct from the brain) be modelled wholly or only partly? If the latter, why?</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>3) In the ongoing mind-body debate, to which camp do you belong? </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>4) Do you think we are (very complicated) robots? If so, what makes these robots acting and behaving?</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>5) If we are robots, physically determined, where does our sense of liberty, justice or compassion come from?</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>6) In the sentence 'the mind models the mind' subject equals object, right? How can?</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>7) If mind and culture are somehow related (I think they are pretty much the same), what could be the relationship between nature (brain) and culture? And would it be (theoretically) possible to formalise this relationship?</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>It seems to me that an unequivocal answer to thrse vexed questions is a prerequisite for having a sensible discussion about mind's embodiedness (link with brain) and embeddedness (link with society/<em><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Mitwelt</span></em>). </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Kind regards, </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Hans Kuijper </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:weng@cse.msu.edu" title="weng@cse.msu.edu">Juyang Weng</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>To:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:dr.ron.sun@gmail.com" title="dr.ron.sun@gmail.com">Professor Ron Sun</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sent:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Saturday, February 16, 2013 11:29 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Subject:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> computational terms as a sign of maturity<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>Ron, <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>Congratulations on your planned book. I noticed the following claim on the page <a href="http://www.cogsci.rpi.edu/%7Ersun/book-mitp.html">Grounding Social Sciences in Cognitive Sciences</a>: In particular, this book will not be limited to computational approaches.<br><br>It is true that we as scientists should be open to all kinds of account about nature: computational, qualitative, intuitive, experimental, pure data from observations. Yes, when a more scientific theory was not available, we humans resort to religious, traditional, and cultural explanations. <br><br>However, is it true that any disciplines in natural science is immature till its phenomena, observations, data can be sufficiently explained in computational terms?<br><br>I guess that any studies on social, cognitive science, and whatever science are immature till many phenomena in the discipline can be explained in computations.<br><br>What is computation? Computation is the real-time account about how elements in the world interact constrained by principles that are best explained in mathematical terms. Here are a few examples from a "low-level" discipline to "higher" disciplines:<br><br><b>Mathematics</b>: Explanations of quantities and structures in space and time are immature till they can be explained in terms of computation. For example, how a value z is computed from two variables x and y by a function f, in z=f(x, y). Addition, subtraction, multiplication and division, are all computational functions. When the precise computations have not been been discovered or available, we have to resort to less specific properties, such as an existence proof. However, an existence proof must still use properties of computation, e.g., algebra. <br><br><b>Physics</b>: Explanations of the rich and complex interactions of physical objects (e.g., when your hand let go of an apple) were immature till we humans discovered the computational terms. Newton's <i>Principia</i> that formulated the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton%27s_laws_of_motion" title="Newton's laws
of motion">laws of motion</a> and <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton%27s_law_of_universal_gravitation" title="Newton's
law of universal gravitation">universal gravitation</a> is an example. <br><br><b>Chemistry</b>: Explanations of atoms, molecules and their interactions, and various forms of a mixture of matters are immature till humans can explain such phenomena through computational terms, such as the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periodic_table">periodic tables</a> of chemical elements, energy, and force. Chemistry is also governed by mathematics. <br><br><b>Biology</b>: Explanations of biological species (e.g., plants, and animals) are immature till humans can explain such phenomena through computational terms. Genome and how genes regulate development is an example. Biology is also governed by chemistry and mathematics. <br><br><b>Brain science</b>: Explanations of brain data (e.g., orientation maps, ocular dominance maps, and topographic maps in the V1 area) are immature till humans can explain such phenomena through computational terms. For example, how such maps arise in computational terms, regulated by nature (e.g., genes) and nurture (e.g., external environment and brain activities). Brain science is also governed by biology, chemistry and mathematics. <br><br><b>Psychology (cognitive Science as part of it):</b> Explanations of cognitive phenomena (e.g., vision, audition, behaviors (including actions), motivation, etc.) are immature till humans can explain such phenomena through computational terms. For that, we need computational terms of the brain, since those psychological phenomena are external phenomena of the brain. Existing phenomena accounted by models in psychology and the computational models in artificial intelligence are all useful, although the gaps between such studies and those accounted by the brain science are very wide. Such wide gaps must be bridged. Psychology is also governed by brain science, biology, chemistry and mathematics. <br><br><b>Social sciences: </b>Explanations of multi-human phenomena (e.g., traditions, religions, culture, labor relations, laws, political science, international conflicts, wars, etc.) are immature till humans can explain such phenomena through computational terms. Social sciences are also governed by psychology, brain science, biology, chemistry and mathematics. Our social scientists and politicians must learn psychology, brain science, biology, chemistry and mathematics. As far as I can see, filling this wide gap has started to take place.<br><br>A current major infrastructural limitation in every country, which is also true in a developed country like US, is that our academic disciplines are too specialized for anybody to understand the natural bridges that fill the wide gap. Therefore, we are partially "blind" by such an infrastructural limitation. That is why we started the Brain-Mind Institute, to overcome such a major limitation. <br><br>Just my 2 cents of worth.<br><br>-John<br><br>On 2/14/13 6:29 PM, Professor Ron Sun wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>Hans: <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>I think this is exactly what you are looking for:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><ul type=disc><li class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><span lang=EN-US style='font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>R. Sun (ed.), <a href="http://www.cogsci.rpi.edu/%7Ersun/book-mitp.html">Grounding Social Sciences in Cognitive Sciences</a>. MIT Press, Cambridge, MA. 2012. <o:p></o:p></span></li></ul><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>On Feb 14, 2013, at 5:38 PM, "hans kuijper" <<a href="mailto:j_kuijper@online.nl">j_kuijper@online.nl</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Dear BMILISTS,</span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Over the last three months or so, I have been following some of your work with great interest, trying to understand it in the context of fast developing cognitive science(s?). I do believe that<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><strong><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>the mind is embodied</span></strong><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>and consequently biologists, particularly brain scientists, (will) have a lot to say about this ill-defined 'thing'. </span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>However, educated in the humanities (I graduated in sinology from Leyden University) and becoming increasingly interested in the science of complexity, I believe that <strong><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>the mind is also embedded</span></strong>. For, as Lev Vygotsky already argued in his book <em><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Mind in Society</span></em><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>(1930): 'The mind cannot be understood in isolation from the surrounding society', an original idea revisited in Andrzej Nowak, Katarzyna Winkowska-Nowak and David Brée (eds.),<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><em><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Complex Human Dynamics: From Mind to Society</span></em>, Springer, 2013.</span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Culture (that other notoriously difficult to describe 'thing', about which many books have been written) seems to be the missing link between mind and society. So the conundrum workers in the natural and cultural (<em><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>i.e.</span></em><span class=apple-converted-space><i> </i></span>social and human) sciences should address collaboratively is the identification, characterisation and understanding of<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><strong><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>the intimate connection between</span></strong><span class=apple-converted-space> </span><strong><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>mind's embodiedness and embeddedness</span></strong>.<strong><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span></strong></span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Arguably, there is nothing more complex than a country, or a culture, being a hypercomplex system of complex systems in context (its outside world). If 'a revolution is occurring in the social sciences', as the editors of<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><em><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Complex Human Dynamics</span></em><span class=apple-converted-space><i> </i></span>claim, that easily overlooked point is to be taken into account. See the article 'Lifting the study of China onto a higher plane' that I recently posted on the website<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a href="http://www.academia.edu">www.academia.edu</a>.<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><em><b><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span></b></em></span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Since I am currently working on a book provisionally entitled<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><em><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>The Complexity of Countries</span></em>, I wonder if anyone of you could suggest what I should definitely read to be well-informed about the cutting edge research not only on<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><u>brain</u>,<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><u>mind</u>,<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><u>society</u><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>and<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><u>culture</u> but also (and perhaps in the first place) on the relationships between these intricately patterned entities. </span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Needless to say, I would be most grateful if you could help me.</span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Yours sincerely,</span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Hans Kuijper</span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Joliotplaats 5</span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>3069 JJ Rotterdam</span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>The Netherlands</span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p><pre><span lang=EN-US>-- <o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US>--<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US>Juyang (John) Weng, Professor<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US>Department of Computer Science and Engineering<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US>MSU Cognitive Science Program and MSU Neuroscience Program<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US>3115 Engineering Building<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US>Michigan State University<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US>East Lansing, MI 48824 USA<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US>Tel: 517-353-4388<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US>Fax: 517-432-1061<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US>Email: <a href="mailto:weng@cse.msu.edu">weng@cse.msu.edu</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US>URL: <a href="http://www.cse.msu.edu/~weng/">http://www.cse.msu.edu/~weng/</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US>----------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></pre></div></body></html>