<div dir="ltr"><div>Dear Asim, </div><div> 1. You wrote, "No one was being dishonest", this is not true. See evidence in J. Weng, "Nobel Frauds Rooted in Bureaucracy", IEEE CDS Newsletter, Vol. 18, No. 4, below. </div><div> 2. You wrote, "biological systems always look for good solutions, that’s inherent to their well-being and survival." You did not respond to my comments and evidence: Biology does not do (1) Cheating, (2) Hiding, and (3) Exaggerating Prediction Accuracy. For example, you could not reply to my Aldof Hitler's example. You could not answer my development arguments. Some national heroes died in a war early do not mean that they are not in human statistics. </div><div> 3. You wrote, "Your write-up was about the need to report all results, not just the best. I cited the Olympics example. In general, there’s minimal interest in reporting the bad solutions." You are wrong. This Olympic example fits my arguments perfectly:<br> (a) Olympic games do not allow athletes to tune "hyper-parameters" using banned drags.<span style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif;font-size:14.6667px"><br></span></div><div> (b) Olympic games report all the competition scores, not hiding them. If the games assume that the total score of the game result is a good predictor of the team's performance, the game uses the total scores (and topically let the total scores to be decided at the last game). However, the last game is NOT the luckiest game! Olympic Games ban reporting only the luckiest game! You are naive to sports. My wife was a professional volleyball player. For example, the Volleyball Round Robin decides the winner team based on total scores summed from all the games!</div><div> For more information, please read the IEEE CDS Newsletter Vol. 18, No. 4, November 2024 below. Two Nobel Prizes 2024 went to frauds!</div><div><br></div><div>IEEE CDS Newsletters<br>Development of Natural and Artificial Intelligence<br>Volume 18, Number 4 ISSN 1550-1914 November 2024<br><a href="https://www.cse.msu.edu/amdtc/amdnl/CDSNL-V18-N4.pdf" target="_blank">https://www.cse.msu.edu/amdtc/amdnl/CDSNL-V18-N4.pdf</a><br>Contents<br>1. Editorial: Nobel Frauds 3<br>2. Invalidity of the Experimental Protocol in Two Nobel Prizes 7<br>3. [AI Crisis] Dialogue: Why Deep Learning Struggles with Generalization 14<br>4. [AI Crisis] Dialogue: Do Not Post-Select Neural Networks and Save Us Undergraduates! 17<br>5. [AI Crisis] Dialogue: Post-Selection Cheats: Save Us High Schoolers! 20<br>6. [AI Crisis] Dialogue: Summary for Above Three Dialogues 24<br>7. [AI Crisis] [Judicial Crisis] Dialogue: Nobel Frauds Rooted in Bureaucracy 25<br>8. Plagiarisms in Two Nobel Prizes 30<br>9. IEEE TCDS Table of Contents 32<span style="font-family:Aptos,sans-serif;font-size:14.6667px"><br></span></div><div><br></div><div> Best regards,</div><div>-John</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Nov 17, 2024 at 6:16 PM Asim Roy <<a href="mailto:ASIM.ROY@asu.edu" target="_blank">ASIM.ROY@asu.edu</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>
<div lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Dear John,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<ol style="margin-top:0in" start="1" type="1">
<li style="margin-left:0in"><span style="font-size:11pt">No one was being dishonest, none of those scientists you blame.<u></u><u></u></span></li><li style="margin-left:0in"><span style="font-size:11pt">The whole argument since Japan was about your claim that biological systems don’t do post-selection. I hope that’s been resolved – biological systems
always look for good solutions, that’s inherent to their well-being and survival.<u></u><u></u></span></li><li style="margin-left:0in"><span style="font-size:11pt">Your write-up was about the need to report all results, not just the best. I cited the Olympics example. In general, there’s minimal interest in reporting
the bad solutions.<u></u><u></u></span></li></ol>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Good luck with your Zoom call. I will not join. And I hope you will stop the email chain at this time.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Best,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Asim<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> Juyang Weng <<a href="mailto:juyang.weng@gmail.com" target="_blank">juyang.weng@gmail.com</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, November 17, 2024 3:20 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Asim Roy <<a href="mailto:ASIM.ROY@asu.edu" target="_blank">ASIM.ROY@asu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:choset@andrew.cmu.edu" target="_blank">choset@andrew.cmu.edu</a>; <a href="mailto:amdnl@lists.cse.msu.edu" target="_blank">amdnl@lists.cse.msu.edu</a>; Akira Horose <<a href="mailto:ahirose@ee.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp" target="_blank">ahirose@ee.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp</a>>; Simon See <<a href="mailto:Simon.CW.See@gmail.com" target="_blank">Simon.CW.See@gmail.com</a>>; Russell T. Harrison <<a href="mailto:r.t.harrison@ieee.org" target="_blank">r.t.harrison@ieee.org</a>>; Hisao Ishibuchi <<a href="mailto:hisao@sustech.edu.cn" target="_blank">hisao@sustech.edu.cn</a>>; Ali Minai <<a href="mailto:minaiaa@gmail.com" target="_blank">minaiaa@gmail.com</a>>; Robert
Kozma <<a href="mailto:rkozma55@gmail.com" target="_blank">rkozma55@gmail.com</a>>; Irwin King <<a href="mailto:irwinking@gmail.com" target="_blank">irwinking@gmail.com</a>>; Marley Vellasco <<a href="mailto:marley@ele.puc-rio.br" target="_blank">marley@ele.puc-rio.br</a>>; Danilo Mandic <<a href="mailto:d.mandic@imperial.ac.uk" target="_blank">d.mandic@imperial.ac.uk</a>>; Xin Yao <<a href="mailto:xiny@sustech.edu.cn" target="_blank">xiny@sustech.edu.cn</a>>; Kenji Doya <<a href="mailto:doya@oist.jp" target="_blank">doya@oist.jp</a>>; Simon See <<a href="mailto:ssee@nvidia.com" target="_blank">ssee@nvidia.com</a>>; Yaochu Jin <<a href="mailto:jinyaochu@westlake.edu.cn" target="_blank">jinyaochu@westlake.edu.cn</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: ZOOM Meeting: False "Great Leap Forward" in AI<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear Asim,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> you are better than those scientists who knew that they are wrong but tried to stop you so as to cover up the alleged frauds. You revealed that somebody asked you to "cool down". Do not cool down the discussion, but be honest. I welcome
you to the ZOOM meeting. <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> Best regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-John<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Sun, Nov 17, 2024 at 4:44<span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span>PM Asim Roy <<a href="mailto:ASIM.ROY@asu.edu" target="_blank">ASIM.ROY@asu.edu</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">I have no interest in this Zoom discussion. I have said enough.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Asim</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> Juyang Weng <<a href="mailto:juyang.weng@gmail.com" target="_blank">juyang.weng@gmail.com</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, November 17, 2024 2:41 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:choset@andrew.cmu.edu" target="_blank">choset@andrew.cmu.edu</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Asim Roy <<a href="mailto:ASIM.ROY@asu.edu" target="_blank">ASIM.ROY@asu.edu</a>>;
<a href="mailto:amdnl@lists.cse.msu.edu" target="_blank">amdnl@lists.cse.msu.edu</a>; Akira Horose <<a href="mailto:ahirose@ee.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp" target="_blank">ahirose@ee.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp</a>>; Simon See <<a href="mailto:Simon.CW.See@gmail.com" target="_blank">Simon.CW.See@gmail.com</a>>;
Russell T. Harrison <<a href="mailto:r.t.harrison@ieee.org" target="_blank">r.t.harrison@ieee.org</a>>; Hisao Ishibuchi <<a href="mailto:hisao@sustech.edu.cn" target="_blank">hisao@sustech.edu.cn</a>>; Ali Minai <<a href="mailto:minaiaa@gmail.com" target="_blank">minaiaa@gmail.com</a>>;
Robert Kozma <<a href="mailto:rkozma55@gmail.com" target="_blank">rkozma55@gmail.com</a>>; Irwin King <<a href="mailto:irwinking@gmail.com" target="_blank">irwinking@gmail.com</a>>; Marley Vellasco <<a href="mailto:marley@ele.puc-rio.br" target="_blank">marley@ele.puc-rio.br</a>>;
Danilo Mandic <<a href="mailto:d.mandic@imperial.ac.uk" target="_blank">d.mandic@imperial.ac.uk</a>>; Xin Yao <<a href="mailto:xiny@sustech.edu.cn" target="_blank">xiny@sustech.edu.cn</a>>; Kenji Doya <<a href="mailto:doya@oist.jp" target="_blank">doya@oist.jp</a>>;
Simon See <<a href="mailto:ssee@nvidia.com" target="_blank">ssee@nvidia.com</a>>; Yaochu Jin <<a href="mailto:jinyaochu@westlake.edu.cn" target="_blank">jinyaochu@westlake.edu.cn</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> ZOOM Meeting: False "Great Leap Forward" in AI</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear All,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> Following Prof. Howie Choset's suggestion, I would like to call for a ZOOM meeting:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> Join Zoom Meeting: False "Great Leap Forward" in AI<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/us02web.zoom.us/j/7914614617?pwd=bExLV0pIQlBwQ2ZscVNTVEF4T1pTUT09__;!!IKRxdwAv5BmarQ!feKOqB7RpcFYHG-SP5iMMeme1Z0dAxWsexOgdQokCTqY7d-90HG94ls3b8h2cpW9z8KsTfxJ0G8KiOn0dA3C8rbU$" target="_blank">https://us02web.zoom.us/j/7914614617?pwd=bExLV0pIQlBwQ2ZscVNTVEF4T1pTUT09</a><br>
Meeting ID: 791 461 4617<br>
Passcode: WengZOOM<br>
Time: 12:01pm, EST<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Date: Tuesday, Nov. 19, 2024<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> All are welcome regardless of where you are and how you get this information. Please spread the word!<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> Best regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt">-John Weng<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Sun, Nov 17, 2024 at 4:24<span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span>PM <<a href="mailto:choset@andrew.cmu.edu" target="_blank">choset@andrew.cmu.edu</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">All – This is nice conversation but I think an email back and forth is not working. If you want to have a discussion, then lets set up a zoom call.
Happy to participate</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Howie</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">
<span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:red">Howie Choset, Professor</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(237,125,49)"> </span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)">
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/biorobotics.org/__;!!IKRxdwAv5BmarQ!feKOqB7RpcFYHG-SP5iMMeme1Z0dAxWsexOgdQokCTqY7d-90HG94ls3b8h2cpW9z8KsTfxJ0G8KiOn0dGqUfGWt$" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(17,85,204)">http://biorobotics.org</span></a> 412-268-2495</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">
<span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:red">Robotics Institute, Carnegie Mellon</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)"> 5000 Forbes Ave, Pittsburgh, PA 15213</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">
<span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:red">Biomedical, Mechanical, and ECE </span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(34,34,34)">Peggy: 412-268-7943</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">
<u><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,176,80)">Co-founder</span></u><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,176,80)">: Medrobotics, Hebi Robotics, Bito Robotics, Omnibus Medical Devices,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">
<span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,176,80)">Latent Robotics, Advanced Robotics For Manufacturing Institute; </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">
<u><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,176,80)">Board Member</span></u><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,176,80)">: PRN <u>Visiting Faculty</u> AI Institute</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> Amdnl <<a href="mailto:amdnl-bounces@lists.cse.msu.edu" target="_blank">amdnl-bounces@lists.cse.msu.edu</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Juyang Weng<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, November 17, 2024 3:55 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Asim Roy <<a href="mailto:ASIM.ROY@asu.edu" target="_blank">ASIM.ROY@asu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:amdnl@lists.cse.msu.edu" target="_blank">amdnl@lists.cse.msu.edu</a>; Akira Horose <<a href="mailto:ahirose@ee.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp" target="_blank">ahirose@ee.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp</a>>; Simon See <<a href="mailto:Simon.CW.See@gmail.com" target="_blank">Simon.CW.See@gmail.com</a>>;
Russell T. Harrison <<a href="mailto:r.t.harrison@ieee.org" target="_blank">r.t.harrison@ieee.org</a>>; Hisao Ishibuchi <<a href="mailto:hisao@sustech.edu.cn" target="_blank">hisao@sustech.edu.cn</a>>; Ali Minai <<a href="mailto:minaiaa@gmail.com" target="_blank">minaiaa@gmail.com</a>>;
Robert Kozma <<a href="mailto:rkozma55@gmail.com" target="_blank">rkozma55@gmail.com</a>>; Irwin King <<a href="mailto:irwinking@gmail.com" target="_blank">irwinking@gmail.com</a>>; Marley Vellasco <<a href="mailto:marley@ele.puc-rio.br" target="_blank">marley@ele.puc-rio.br</a>>;
Danilo Mandic <<a href="mailto:d.mandic@imperial.ac.uk" target="_blank">d.mandic@imperial.ac.uk</a>>; Xin Yao <<a href="mailto:xiny@sustech.edu.cn" target="_blank">xiny@sustech.edu.cn</a>>; Kenji Doya <<a href="mailto:doya@oist.jp" target="_blank">doya@oist.jp</a>>;
Simon See <<a href="mailto:ssee@nvidia.com" target="_blank">ssee@nvidia.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [CDSNL] False "Great Leap Forward" in AI</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear Asim,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> I refuse to reply to your personal attack: "dishonesty". Otherwise, I would violate The Robert Rules of Order as you did several times before.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> I wrote, "Since you are a mathematician, please try to understand the Minimum Mean Square Error (MMSE) principle (Theorem 1 and Proof in [11]) in the attached preprint titled
`Invalidity of the Experimental Protocol in Two Nobel Prizes'." From the term "mathematics" and the title `Invalidity of the Experimental Protocol in Two Nobel Prizes', you should address Theorem 1 in mathematical correctness (instead of out of context).
However, you failed to do so.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> Best regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-John<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Sun, Nov 17, 2024 at 2:03<span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span>PM Asim Roy <<a href="mailto:ASIM.ROY@asu.edu" target="_blank">ASIM.ROY@asu.edu</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Dear John,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">I wish you would stop this. You started by saying post-selection is not part of biology and I pointed out that it’s very much part of biology. I didn’t
see any biological arguments in the attached note. You knew that very well and sending this paper is part of your dishonesty because it’s switching away from the biological argument.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Your arguments in that note are also flawed. As I mentioned before, there is not much value in reporting all solutions. Think of the Olympics. Each
country selects their best athletes. You are asking why they don’t report on the performance of all the athletes that competed. The data is there and each country might have internal use for it, but, in the end, they send their best ones. At the Olympics,
we award the top three with medals. You can ask the Olympic committee to provide the average time for the 100 meters dash, but that does not have much value. The data is there and could be interest to someone. But, to the general public, the medal winners
matter. There’s no “misdeed” or “cheating” or “hiding” in this process. Olympics, in general, is a very fair process. It’s all based on the winners that year and under whatever conditions existed that year (temperature, weather, etc.).</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">I think you are misguided in your arguments both on the statistical side and the biological side. Reporting all results may not be of much interest
in general. I am sure, these competition organizers can disclose that information if needed. But there is no “cheating” or “hiding” anything. The rules of these competition are well-defined.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">If that article was your final argument, then let’s stop emailing at this point.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Best,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Asim</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> Juyang Weng <<a href="mailto:juyang.weng@gmail.com" target="_blank">juyang.weng@gmail.com</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, November 17, 2024 9:10 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Asim Roy <<a href="mailto:ASIM.ROY@asu.edu" target="_blank">ASIM.ROY@asu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Dongshu Wang (</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"MS Gothic"">王</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif">东署</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">) <<a href="mailto:wangdongshu@zzu.edu.cn" target="_blank">wangdongshu@zzu.edu.cn</a>>;
Russell T. Harrison <<a href="mailto:r.t.harrison@ieee.org" target="_blank">r.t.harrison@ieee.org</a>>; Akira Horose <<a href="mailto:ahirose@ee.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp" target="_blank">ahirose@ee.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp</a>>; Hisao Ishibuchi <<a href="mailto:hisao@sustech.edu.cn" target="_blank">hisao@sustech.edu.cn</a>>;
Simon See <<a href="mailto:ssee@nvidia.com" target="_blank">ssee@nvidia.com</a>>; Kenji Doya <<a href="mailto:doya@oist.jp" target="_blank">doya@oist.jp</a>>; Robert Kozma <<a href="mailto:rkozma55@gmail.com" target="_blank">rkozma55@gmail.com</a>>; Simon
See <<a href="mailto:Simon.CW.See@gmail.com" target="_blank">Simon.CW.See@gmail.com</a>>; Yaochu Jin <<a href="mailto:Yaochu.Jin@surrey.ac.uk" target="_blank">Yaochu.Jin@surrey.ac.uk</a>>; Xin Yao <<a href="mailto:xiny@sustech.edu.cn" target="_blank">xiny@sustech.edu.cn</a>>;
<a href="mailto:amdnl@lists.cse.msu.edu" target="_blank">amdnl@lists.cse.msu.edu</a>; Danilo Mandic <<a href="mailto:d.mandic@imperial.ac.uk" target="_blank">d.mandic@imperial.ac.uk</a>>; Irwin King <<a href="mailto:irwinking@gmail.com" target="_blank">irwinking@gmail.com</a>>;
Jose Principe <<a href="mailto:principe@cnel.ufl.edu" target="_blank">principe@cnel.ufl.edu</a>>; Marley Vellasco <<a href="mailto:marley@ele.puc-rio.br" target="_blank">marley@ele.puc-rio.br</a>>; Ali Minai <<a href="mailto:minaiaa@gmail.com" target="_blank">minaiaa@gmail.com</a>>;
Kim Plunkett <<a href="mailto:kim.plunkett@psy.ox.ac.uk" target="_blank">kim.plunkett@psy.ox.ac.uk</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: False "Great Leap Forward" in AI</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear Asim,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> We must not discuss issues in the context. <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> You wrote, "When we report results of various algorithms, we are all aware that we report the best results." This is out of context. To report the behavior of an algorithm,
we must report the distribution of its behavior, NOT the luckiest result.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> Since you are a mathematician, please try to understand the Minimum Mean Square Error (MMSE) principle (Theorem 1 and Proof in [11]) in the attached preprint titled "Invalidity
of the Experimental Protocol in Two Nobel Prizes". <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> Best regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-John <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Sat, Nov 16, 2024 at 3:57<span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span>PM Asim Roy <<a href="mailto:ASIM.ROY@asu.edu" target="_blank">ASIM.ROY@asu.edu</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Dear John,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">I wish I can stop this nonsense argument. When we report results of various algorithms, we are all aware that we report the best results. That’s accepted
in science. Biological systems also do trial and error processes and learn from it and then pick and use the best process. That’s how we operate, as biological systems. We don’t always report our failures and I think you are calling “not reporting” cheating
and hiding. Of course, we as individuals, in that sense, do cheat and hide.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">You are trying to say that in our papers, we should be reporting the bad results. That’s not a necessity and never been a necessity. I come from an
optimization background and have always reported the best results found by an algorithm. Even if we had reported the bad results, there is no value in it.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Hope you can carry on your arguments within your community without accusing others of “cheating” and “misdeeds.” If we see real misdeeds in reporting
results, we have a fairly good system to protect against that. There are many recent cases.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Again, please carry on your nonsense discussion within your community that subscribes to these views. No need to come to conference and loudly accuse
people of “misdeeds.” I think I speak for many.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Best,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Asim</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> Juyang Weng <<a href="mailto:juyang.weng@gmail.com" target="_blank">juyang.weng@gmail.com</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, November 16, 2024 1:24 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Asim Roy <<a href="mailto:ASIM.ROY@asu.edu" target="_blank">ASIM.ROY@asu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Dongshu Wang (</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"MS Gothic"">王</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif">东署</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">) <<a href="mailto:wangdongshu@zzu.edu.cn" target="_blank">wangdongshu@zzu.edu.cn</a>>;
Russell T. Harrison <<a href="mailto:r.t.harrison@ieee.org" target="_blank">r.t.harrison@ieee.org</a>>; Akira Horose <<a href="mailto:ahirose@ee.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp" target="_blank">ahirose@ee.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp</a>>; Hisao Ishibuchi <<a href="mailto:hisao@sustech.edu.cn" target="_blank">hisao@sustech.edu.cn</a>>;
Simon See <<a href="mailto:ssee@nvidia.com" target="_blank">ssee@nvidia.com</a>>; Kenji Doya <<a href="mailto:doya@oist.jp" target="_blank">doya@oist.jp</a>>; Robert Kozma <<a href="mailto:rkozma55@gmail.com" target="_blank">rkozma55@gmail.com</a>>; Simon
See <<a href="mailto:Simon.CW.See@gmail.com" target="_blank">Simon.CW.See@gmail.com</a>>; Yaochu Jin <<a href="mailto:Yaochu.Jin@surrey.ac.uk" target="_blank">Yaochu.Jin@surrey.ac.uk</a>>; Xin Yao <<a href="mailto:xiny@sustech.edu.cn" target="_blank">xiny@sustech.edu.cn</a>>;
<a href="mailto:amdnl@lists.cse.msu.edu" target="_blank">amdnl@lists.cse.msu.edu</a>; Danilo Mandic <<a href="mailto:d.mandic@imperial.ac.uk" target="_blank">d.mandic@imperial.ac.uk</a>>; Irwin King <<a href="mailto:irwinking@gmail.com" target="_blank">irwinking@gmail.com</a>>;
Jose Principe <<a href="mailto:principe@cnel.ufl.edu" target="_blank">principe@cnel.ufl.edu</a>>; Marley Vellasco <<a href="mailto:marley@ele.puc-rio.br" target="_blank">marley@ele.puc-rio.br</a>>; Ali Minai <<a href="mailto:minaiaa@gmail.com" target="_blank">minaiaa@gmail.com</a>>;
Jay McClelland <<a href="mailto:jlmcc@stanford.edu" target="_blank">jlmcc@stanford.edu</a>>; Kim Plunkett <<a href="mailto:kim.plunkett@psy.ox.ac.uk" target="_blank">kim.plunkett@psy.ox.ac.uk</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: False "Great Leap Forward" in AI</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear Asim,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> You shallowly mentioned the term "biology", but you still have no biological substances.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> I said (1) cheating, (2) hiding and (3) exaggeration are not what biology does.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> (a) You wrote, "Think about natural selection and survival of the fittest." Not applicable. For example, get back to my example about Adolf Hitler. Adolf Hitler still lives.
He just died from an unnatural course. We must report Adolf Hitler, must not hide him, and must not exaggerate that he is not in human statistics. <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> (b) You wrote, "Think about trying out different strategies for doing something and then selecting the best." Not applicable, at least you did not give any biological evidence
that biology did (1) cheating, (2) hiding, and (3) exaggeration (e.g., at the genes level). At the agent level. a human is conscious to do (1) cheating, (2) hiding, and (3) exaggeration, but the facts of all agent level of biology (including his failure
cases) must be reported. <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> (c) You wrote, "Think about learning from past failures." Not applicable. Whatever he learns, he cannot (1) cheat, (2) hide, and (2) exaggerate the mean of his prediction accuracy.
Again, learning from Hitler's failure does not mean that you can hide his case and not report about him.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> I give you a hint: As I wrote with Jay McClelland and K. Plunkett (CCed), ``Convergent Approaches to the Understanding of Autonomous Mental Development,'' editorial for the
Special Issue on Autonomous Mental Development in the<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">IEEE Transactions on Evolutionary Computation, vol. 18, no. 2, 2007: No evolutional works that we have seen then (and it seems to be true after 17 years), no evolutional methods
do development. Learning is in development (that DNs do), not in meiosis (look it up). <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear Xin Yao, <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> Have you done development (e.g., each life must succeed in lifetime learning from birth to death)?<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> Best regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-John<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Nov 15, 2024 at 9:43<span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span>PM Asim Roy <<a href="mailto:ASIM.ROY@asu.edu" target="_blank">ASIM.ROY@asu.edu</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Dear John,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">I should not be replying to your email. I did mention last time that I have interest in continuing this nonsense dialogue. And, I did provide you
with some examples to justify the biological basis of post-selection. Read them carefully. I can add to them. Think about natural selection and survival of the fittest. Think about trying out different strategies for doing something and then selecting the
best. Think about learning from past failures. They are all about post-selection, rejecting the bad solutions and picking the best. And this is at the individual level. That’s biology.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">As I stated before, I have no interest in continuing this nonsense discussion. And I have no idea who is listening to you and subscribes to your views.
You are free to continue your discussion within your community.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Best,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Asim
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> Juyang Weng <<a href="mailto:juyang.weng@gmail.com" target="_blank">juyang.weng@gmail.com</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 14, 2024 7:59 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Asim Roy <<a href="mailto:ASIM.ROY@asu.edu" target="_blank">ASIM.ROY@asu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Dongshu Wang (</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"MS Gothic"">王</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif">东署</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">) <<a href="mailto:wangdongshu@zzu.edu.cn" target="_blank">wangdongshu@zzu.edu.cn</a>>;
Russell T. Harrison <<a href="mailto:r.t.harrison@ieee.org" target="_blank">r.t.harrison@ieee.org</a>>; Akira Horose <<a href="mailto:ahirose@ee.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp" target="_blank">ahirose@ee.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp</a>>; Hisao Ishibuchi <<a href="mailto:hisao@sustech.edu.cn" target="_blank">hisao@sustech.edu.cn</a>>;
Simon See <<a href="mailto:ssee@nvidia.com" target="_blank">ssee@nvidia.com</a>>; Kenji Doya <<a href="mailto:doya@oist.jp" target="_blank">doya@oist.jp</a>>; Robert Kozma <<a href="mailto:rkozma55@gmail.com" target="_blank">rkozma55@gmail.com</a>>; Simon
See <<a href="mailto:Simon.CW.See@gmail.com" target="_blank">Simon.CW.See@gmail.com</a>>; Yaochu Jin <<a href="mailto:Yaochu.Jin@surrey.ac.uk" target="_blank">Yaochu.Jin@surrey.ac.uk</a>>; Xin Yao <<a href="mailto:xiny@sustech.edu.cn" target="_blank">xiny@sustech.edu.cn</a>>;
<a href="mailto:amdnl@lists.cse.msu.edu" target="_blank">amdnl@lists.cse.msu.edu</a>; Danilo Mandic <<a href="mailto:d.mandic@imperial.ac.uk" target="_blank">d.mandic@imperial.ac.uk</a>>; Irwin King <<a href="mailto:irwinking@gmail.com" target="_blank">irwinking@gmail.com</a>>;
Jose Principe <<a href="mailto:principe@cnel.ufl.edu" target="_blank">principe@cnel.ufl.edu</a>>; Marley Vellasco <<a href="mailto:marley@ele.puc-rio.br" target="_blank">marley@ele.puc-rio.br</a>>; Ali Minai <<a href="mailto:minaiaa@gmail.com" target="_blank">minaiaa@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: False "Great Leap Forward" in AI</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear Asim,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> I am trying to include your last response in the attached newsletter, but I cannot because it does not have substance.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> You wrote, "John knows fully well that he is falsely accusing others of “cheating” and “misdeeds” when post-selection has a biological basis." <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> But you do not have any substance to substantiate your single-sentence claim. <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> Post-selection does not have a biological basis, because biology (1) does not cheat, (2) does not hide, and (3) does not exaggerate prediction accuracy.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> You will receive the upcoming newsletter Vol. 18, No. 4, 2024 with more details about (1), (2) and (3) if you subscribe to the Newsletter. Let me know if you cannot find the
subscription site. <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> Best regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-John <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 7:21<span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span>PM Asim Roy <<a href="mailto:ASIM.ROY@asu.edu" target="_blank">ASIM.ROY@asu.edu</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Dear John,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">This is your typical dishonesty while you accuse others of “cheating” and “misdeeds.” I sent the attached reply to you on July 14 and it could have
been easily included in your newsletter. Everyone knows that the newsletter is online and can be easily amended to include this reply, which is attached. So, I request Dongshu Wang to include this in Issue No. 3 because it has continuity with the other arguments
in that issue. I have no interest in starting another nonsense dialogue that you mention.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">To All:
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">John knows fully well that he is falsely accusing others of “cheating” and “misdeeds” when post-selection has a biological basis.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Best,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Asim</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> Juyang Weng <<a href="mailto:juyang.weng@gmail.com" target="_blank">juyang.weng@gmail.com</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 17, 2024 2:24 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Asim Roy <<a href="mailto:ASIM.ROY@asu.edu" target="_blank">ASIM.ROY@asu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Dongshu Wang (</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"MS Gothic"">王</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Microsoft JhengHei",sans-serif">东署</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">) <<a href="mailto:wangdongshu@zzu.edu.cn" target="_blank">wangdongshu@zzu.edu.cn</a>>;
Russell T. Harrison <<a href="mailto:r.t.harrison@ieee.org" target="_blank">r.t.harrison@ieee.org</a>>; Akira Horose <<a href="mailto:ahirose@ee.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp" target="_blank">ahirose@ee.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp</a>>; Hisao Ishibuchi <<a href="mailto:hisao@sustech.edu.cn" target="_blank">hisao@sustech.edu.cn</a>>;
Simon See <<a href="mailto:ssee@nvidia.com" target="_blank">ssee@nvidia.com</a>>; Kenji Doya <<a href="mailto:doya@oist.jp" target="_blank">doya@oist.jp</a>>; Robert Kozma <<a href="mailto:rkozma55@gmail.com" target="_blank">rkozma55@gmail.com</a>>; Simon
See <<a href="mailto:Simon.CW.See@gmail.com" target="_blank">Simon.CW.See@gmail.com</a>>; Yaochu Jin <<a href="mailto:Yaochu.Jin@surrey.ac.uk" target="_blank">Yaochu.Jin@surrey.ac.uk</a>>; Xin Yao <<a href="mailto:xiny@sustech.edu.cn" target="_blank">xiny@sustech.edu.cn</a>>;
<a href="mailto:amdnl@lists.cse.msu.edu" target="_blank">amdnl@lists.cse.msu.edu</a>; Danilo Mandic <<a href="mailto:d.mandic@imperial.ac.uk" target="_blank">d.mandic@imperial.ac.uk</a>>; Irwin King <<a href="mailto:irwinking@gmail.com" target="_blank">irwinking@gmail.com</a>>;
Jose Principe <<a href="mailto:principe@cnel.ufl.edu" target="_blank">principe@cnel.ufl.edu</a>>; Marley Vellasco <<a href="mailto:marley@ele.puc-rio.br" target="_blank">marley@ele.puc-rio.br</a>>; Ali Minai <<a href="mailto:minaiaa@gmail.com" target="_blank">minaiaa@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: False "Great Leap Forward" in AI</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear Asim,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> 1. The Newsletter should not be altered after its publication on July 16, 2024. <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> 2. I have not had time to read your previous email as a formal review for Issue Vol. 18, No. 3 either before its publication. You changed my mind too late.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> 3. Please consider submitting an [AI Crisis] Dialogue for Issue Vol. 18, No. 4 instead.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> Best regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-John <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 4:47<span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span>AM Asim Roy <<a href="mailto:ASIM.ROY@asu.edu" target="_blank">ASIM.ROY@asu.edu</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Dear John,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Please have Dongshu Wang publish my last reply in your just published newsletter. It refutes your claim that post-selection is not a biological process.
And all the other nonsense claims about the need to publish non-optimal solutions.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">The newsletter is online and my last note (attached) can be easily added to it and a notification sent to all your subscribers about my last reply.
Otherwise, I will consider it a dishonesty on your part.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Best,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Asim</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> Juyang Weng <<a href="mailto:juyang.weng@gmail.com" target="_blank">juyang.weng@gmail.com</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 16, 2024 11:53 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Asim Roy <<a href="mailto:ASIM.ROY@asu.edu" target="_blank">ASIM.ROY@asu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Russell T. Harrison <<a href="mailto:r.t.harrison@ieee.org" target="_blank">r.t.harrison@ieee.org</a>>; Akira Horose <<a href="mailto:ahirose@ee.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp" target="_blank">ahirose@ee.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp</a>>; Hisao Ishibuchi <<a href="mailto:hisao@sustech.edu.cn" target="_blank">hisao@sustech.edu.cn</a>>;
Simon See <<a href="mailto:ssee@nvidia.com" target="_blank">ssee@nvidia.com</a>>; Kenji Doya <<a href="mailto:doya@oist.jp" target="_blank">doya@oist.jp</a>>; Robert Kozma <<a href="mailto:rkozma55@gmail.com" target="_blank">rkozma55@gmail.com</a>>; Simon
See <<a href="mailto:Simon.CW.See@gmail.com" target="_blank">Simon.CW.See@gmail.com</a>>; Yaochu Jin <<a href="mailto:Yaochu.Jin@surrey.ac.uk" target="_blank">Yaochu.Jin@surrey.ac.uk</a>>; Xin Yao <<a href="mailto:xiny@sustech.edu.cn" target="_blank">xiny@sustech.edu.cn</a>>;
<a href="mailto:amdnl@lists.cse.msu.edu" target="_blank">amdnl@lists.cse.msu.edu</a>; Danilo Mandic <<a href="mailto:d.mandic@imperial.ac.uk" target="_blank">d.mandic@imperial.ac.uk</a>>; Irwin King <<a href="mailto:irwinking@gmail.com" target="_blank">irwinking@gmail.com</a>>;
Jose Principe <<a href="mailto:principe@cnel.ufl.edu" target="_blank">principe@cnel.ufl.edu</a>>; Marley Vellasco <<a href="mailto:marley@ele.puc-rio.br" target="_blank">marley@ele.puc-rio.br</a>>; Ali Minai <<a href="mailto:minaiaa@gmail.com" target="_blank">minaiaa@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: False "Great Leap Forward" in AI</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear Asim,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> Sorry, this response is too late for Vol. 18, No. 3, 2024. You wrote that you would not respond anymore. <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> I saw it just now after publishing No. 3. See <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.cse.msu.edu/amdtc/amdnl/CDSNL-V18-N3.pdf__;!!IKRxdwAv5BmarQ!df8y5hJWRutTV1ot7ePop959eE92GM_dhD75tdtWYF2lZEofBYgmsLc1_7pL8NhOv4PIlQJbPMVSWs_LQNxiumsb$" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">CDS
TC Newsletter Vol. 18, No. 3, 2024</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> I suggest that you compose the material as a formal [AI Crisis] Dialogue and submit it to me (the dialogue initiator) with a CC to EIC Dongshu Wang. Otherwise, I will include
it in issue Vol. 18, No. 4, 2024 which will appear in Nov. 2024.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> Best regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-John<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Jul 15, 2024 at 12:10<span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span>AM Asim Roy <<a href="mailto:ASIM.ROY@asu.edu" target="_blank">ASIM.ROY@asu.edu</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Dear John,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">This will be my last response to the issues you have raised. Since you are posting my responses in your newsletter, please post them without any changes.
I am going to be selective in my response since I don’t think the rest of your arguments matter that much.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">1)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><u><span style="font-size:11pt">Asim Roy wrote</span></u></b><span style="font-size:11pt">, "In fact, there is plenty of evidence in biology that it can create new circuits
and reuse old circuits and cells/neurons. Thus, throwing out bad solutions happens in biology too." </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><u><span style="font-size:11pt">John Weng’s response</span></u></b><span style="font-size:11pt">:
<u><span style="color:black;background:yellow">This is irrelevant</span></u>, as your mother is not inside your skull, but a human programmer is doing that inside the "skull."</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><u><span style="font-size:11pt">Asim Roy response</span></u></b><span style="font-size:11pt">: By saying “this is irrelevant,” you are admitting that “throwing out bad solutions
happens in biology too." You have not contested that claim. If throwing out bad solutions happens in biology, there is nothing wrong in replicating that process in post-hoc selection of good solutions. It is similar to a biological process. Post-hoc selection
is the main issue in all of your arguments and I think you should apologize to all for making a false accusation, that the post-hoc selection process doesn’t have a biological basis.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">2)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><u><span style="font-size:11pt">Asim Roy wrote</span></u></b><span style="font-size:11pt">, "I still recall Horace Barlow’s ... note to me on the grandmother cell theory:
... though I fear that what I have written will not be universally accepted, at least at first!”.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><u><span style="font-size:11pt">John Weng’s response</span></u></b><span style="font-size:11pt">: If you understand DN3, the first model for conscious learning that starts
from a single cell, you will see how the grandmother cell theory is naive. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><u><span style="font-size:11pt">Asim Roy response</span></u></b><span style="font-size:11pt">: The existence of grandmother-type cells will not be proven by any mathematical
model, least of all by your DN3 model. The existence will be proven by further neurophysiological studies. By the way, I challenge you to create the kind of abstract cells like the Jennifer Aniston cell with your development network DN3.
</span><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Take a look at the concept cell findings (Jennifer Aniston cells). Here’s from
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.frontiersin.org/journals/neuroscience/articles/10.3389/fnins.2020.00059/full*B6__;Iw!!IKRxdwAv5BmarQ!df8y5hJWRutTV1ot7ePop959eE92GM_dhD75tdtWYF2lZEofBYgmsLc1_7pL8NhOv4PIlQJbPMVSWs_LQHJKuM0B$" target="_blank">
<span style="background:rgb(247,247,247)">Reddy and Thorpe (2014)</span></a><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);background:rgb(247,247,247)">: “</span><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);background:yellow">concept cells have “<strong><i><u><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">meaning</span></u></i></strong> of
a given stimulus in a manner that is <strong><i><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">invariant</span></i></strong> to different representations of that stimulus.”</span><span style="color:rgb(40,40,40);background:rgb(247,247,247)"> Can you replicate that phenomenon
in DN3?</span></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(40,40,40);background:rgb(247,247,247)"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">3)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">The following arguments are so basic about optimization that it would be silly to try to respond to them with such
scholars in the field. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><u>Asim Roy:</u></b> "<span style="font-size:11pt">he does use an optimization method to weed out bad solutions."
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><u><span style="font-size:11pt">John Weng:
</span></u></b><span style="font-size:11pt">This is false. DN does not weed out bad solutions, since it has only one solution.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><u><span style="font-size:11pt">Asim’s Response</span></u></b><span style="font-size:11pt">: Just imagine, he claims he finds a globally optimal solution in a complex network
without weeding out bad solutions. That is almost magical.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><u><span style="font-size:11pt">Asim Roy:</span></u></b><span style="font-size:11pt"> "In optimization, we only report the best solution."
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><u><span style="font-size:11pt">John Weng:</span></u></b><span style="font-size:11pt"> This is misconduct, if you hide bad-looking data, like hiding all other students in
your class.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><u><span style="font-size:11pt">Asim’s Response</span></u></b><span style="font-size:11pt">: My god, how do I respond to this!!! That’s what we do in the optimization field.
No one ever told me or anyone else that reporting the best solution is misconduct.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><u><span style="font-size:11pt">Asim Roy:</span></u></b><span style="font-size:11pt"> "There is no requirement to report any non-optimal solutions."
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><u><span style="font-size:11pt">John Weng:</span></u></b><span style="font-size:11pt"> This is not true for scientific papers and business reports.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><u><span style="font-size:11pt">Asim’s Response</span></u></b><span style="font-size:11pt">: Again, how do I respond to that. We do that all the time.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><u><span style="font-size:11pt">Asim Roy:</span></u></b><span style="font-size:11pt"> "If someone is doing part of the optimization manually, post-hoc, there is nothing wrong
with that either." </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><u><span style="font-size:11pt">John Weng</span></u></b><span style="font-size:11pt">: This is false because the so-called post-hoc solution did not have a test!</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><u><span style="font-size:11pt">Asim’s Response</span></u></b><span style="font-size:11pt">: For Imagenet and other competitions, there is always an independent test set.
When we create our own data, we do cross-validation and other kinds of random training and testing. What is he talking about?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">John, this is my last response. You can post it in your newsletter, but without any changes. I will not respond anymore.
I think I have responded to your fundamental argument, that post-selection is non-biological. It is indeed biological and you have admitted that.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Thanks,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Asim Roy</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Professor, Information Systems<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Arizona State University<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://search.asu.edu/profile/9973" target="_blank">Asim Roy | ASU Search</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/lifeboat.com/ex/bios.asim.roy__;!!IKRxdwAv5BmarQ!aCvWF-PEaRtFT0lr5G-TVd1WSX7BloN_D524nbIUhctg9BC609q63-E91LYTCtXzoEQMZbkc5gnl53le6QZXPE1y$" target="_blank">Lifeboat
Foundation Bios: Professor Asim Roy</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> Juyang Weng <<a href="mailto:juyang.weng@gmail.com" target="_blank">juyang.weng@gmail.com</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 5, 2024 6:23 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Asim Roy <<a href="mailto:ASIM.ROY@asu.edu" target="_blank">ASIM.ROY@asu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Russell T. Harrison <<a href="mailto:r.t.harrison@ieee.org" target="_blank">r.t.harrison@ieee.org</a>>; Akira Horose <<a href="mailto:ahirose@ee.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp" target="_blank">ahirose@ee.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp</a>>; Hisao Ishibuchi <<a href="mailto:hisao@sustech.edu.cn" target="_blank">hisao@sustech.edu.cn</a>>;
Simon See <<a href="mailto:ssee@nvidia.com" target="_blank">ssee@nvidia.com</a>>; Kenji Doya <<a href="mailto:doya@oist.jp" target="_blank">doya@oist.jp</a>>; Robert Kozma <<a href="mailto:rkozma55@gmail.com" target="_blank">rkozma55@gmail.com</a>>; Simon
See <<a href="mailto:Simon.CW.See@gmail.com" target="_blank">Simon.CW.See@gmail.com</a>>; Yaochu Jin <<a href="mailto:Yaochu.Jin@surrey.ac.uk" target="_blank">Yaochu.Jin@surrey.ac.uk</a>>; Xin Yao <<a href="mailto:xiny@sustech.edu.cn" target="_blank">xiny@sustech.edu.cn</a>>;
<a href="mailto:amdnl@lists.cse.msu.edu" target="_blank">amdnl@lists.cse.msu.edu</a>; Danilo Mandic <<a href="mailto:d.mandic@imperial.ac.uk" target="_blank">d.mandic@imperial.ac.uk</a>>; Irwin King <<a href="mailto:irwinking@gmail.com" target="_blank">irwinking@gmail.com</a>>;
Jose Principe <<a href="mailto:principe@cnel.ufl.edu" target="_blank">principe@cnel.ufl.edu</a>>; Marley Vellasco <<a href="mailto:marley@ele.puc-rio.br" target="_blank">marley@ele.puc-rio.br</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: False "Great Leap Forward" in AI</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear Asim,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> Thank you for your response, so that people on this email list can get important benefits. The subject is very new. I can raise these misconducts because we have a holistic
solution to the 20 million-dollar problems. <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> You wrote, "<span style="font-size:11pt">he does use an optimization method to weed out bad solutions." This is false. DN does not weed out bad solutions, since it has
only one solution.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> You wrote, "In optimization, we only report the best solution." This is misconduct, if you hide bad-looking data, like hiding all other students
in your class.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> You wrote, "There is no requirement to report any non-optimal solutions." This is not true for scientific papers and business reports.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> You wrote, "If someone is doing part of the optimization manually, post-hoc, there is nothing wrong with that either." This is false because
the so-called post-hoc solution did not have a test!</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> You wrote, "In fact, there is plenty of evidence in biology that it can create new circuits and reuse old circuits and cells/neurons. Thus, throwing
out bad solutions happens in biology too." This is irrelevant, as your mother is not inside your skull, but a human programmer is doing that inside the "skull."</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> You wrote, "at a higher level, there’s natural selection and survival of the fittest. So, building many solutions (networks) and picking the best
fits well with biology." As I wrote before, this is false, since biology has built Aldof Hitler and many German soldiers who acted during the Second World War. We report them, not hiding them.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> You wrote, "J</span>ohn calls this process `cheating' and a `misdeed".” Yes, I still do.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> You wrote, "<span style="font-size:11pt">he claims his algorithm gets the globally optimal solution, doesn’t get stuck in any local minima." This is true, since we do not
have a single objective function as you assumed. Such a single objective function is a restricted environment or government. Instead, the maximum likelihood computation in DN is conducted in a distributed way by all neurons, each of them having its own
maximum likelihood mechanism (optimal Hebbain mechanism). Read a book, Juyang Weng, Natural and Artificial Intelligence, available at Amonzon.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> You wrote, "If that is true, he should get far better results than the folks who are “cheating” through post-selection." Off course, we did as
early as 2016. See "</span>Luckiest from Post vs Single DN" in the attached file 2024-06-30-IJCNN-Tutorial-1page.pdf<span style="font-size:11pt">. Furthermore, the luckiest from the cheating is only a fitting error on the validation set (not test), the
single DN is a test error because DN does not fit the validation set. The latter should not be compared with the former, but we compared with them anyway. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> You wrote, </span>"My hunch is, his algorithm falls short and can’t compete with the other ones." <span style="font-size:11pt"> Your hunch
is wrong. See above as you can see how wrong you are. DN is a lot better than even the false performance.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> You wrote, "</span>And that’s the reason for this outrage against others.<span style="font-size:11pt">" I am honest. All others should be
honest too. Do not cheat like many Chinese in the Great Leap Forward. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> You wrote, "</span>I would again urge IEEE to take action against John Weng for harassing plenary speakers at this conference and accusing them
of “misdeeds.”<span style="font-size:11pt"> I am simply trying to exercise my freedom of speech driven by my care for our community.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> Do you all see a "Great Leap Forward in AI" like the "Great Leap Forward" in 1958 in China?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> Best regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">-John</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Jul 5, 2024 at 9:01<span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span>AM Asim Roy <<a href="mailto:ASIM.ROY@asu.edu" target="_blank">ASIM.ROY@asu.edu</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Dear All,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Without getting into the details of his DN algorithm, he does use an optimization method to weed out bad solutions. In optimization, we only report
the best solution. There is no requirement to report any non-optimal solutions. If someone is doing part of the optimization manually, post-hoc, there is nothing wrong with that either. In fact, there is plenty of evidence in biology that it can create new
circuits and reuse old circuits and cells/neurons. Thus, throwing out bad solutions happens in biology too. And, of course, at a higher level, there’s natural selection and survival of the fittest. So, building many solutions (networks) and picking the best
fits well with biology. However, John calls this process “cheating” and a “misdeed.” He also claims having a strong background in biology. So he should be aware of these processes.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">In addition, he claims his algorithm gets the globally optimal solution, doesn’t get stuck in any local minima. If that is true, he should get far
better results than the folks who are “cheating” through post-selection. He should be able to demonstrate his superior solutions through the public competitions such as with Imagenet data. My hunch is, his algorithm falls short and can’t compete with the other
ones. And that’s the reason for this outrage against others.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">I would again urge IEEE to take action against John Weng for harassing plenary speakers at this conference and accusing them of “misdeeds.”
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Best,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Asim</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> Juyang Weng <</span><a href="mailto:juyang.weng@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">juyang.weng@gmail.com</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 4, 2024 8:14 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Asim Roy <</span><a href="mailto:ASIM.ROY@asu.edu" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">ASIM.ROY@asu.edu</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Russell T. Harrison <</span><a href="mailto:r.t.harrison@ieee.org" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">r.t.harrison@ieee.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">>;
Akira Horose <</span><a href="mailto:ahirose@ee.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">ahirose@ee.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">>; Hisao Ishibuchi
<</span><a href="mailto:hisao@sustech.edu.cn" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">hisao@sustech.edu.cn</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">>; Simon See <</span><a href="mailto:ssee@nvidia.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">ssee@nvidia.com</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">>;
Kenji Doya <</span><a href="mailto:doya@oist.jp" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">doya@oist.jp</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">>; Robert Kozma <</span><a href="mailto:rkozma55@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">rkozma55@gmail.com</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">>;
Simon See <</span><a href="mailto:Simon.CW.See@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Simon.CW.See@gmail.com</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">>; Yaochu Jin <</span><a href="mailto:Yaochu.Jin@surrey.ac.uk" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Yaochu.Jin@surrey.ac.uk</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">>;
Xin Yao <</span><a href="mailto:xiny@sustech.edu.cn" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">xiny@sustech.edu.cn</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">>;
</span><a href="mailto:amdnl@lists.cse.msu.edu" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">amdnl@lists.cse.msu.edu</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">; Danilo Mandic <</span><a href="mailto:d.mandic@imperial.ac.uk" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">d.mandic@imperial.ac.uk</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">>;
Irwin King <</span><a href="mailto:irwinking@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">irwinking@gmail.com</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: False "Great Leap Forward" in AI</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Dear Asim and All,<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> I am happy that Asim responded so that he gave us all an opportunity to interactively participate in an academic discussion. We can defeat the false "Great Leap Forward".<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> During the banquet of July 3, 2024, I was trying to explain to Asim why our Developmental Network (DN) only trains a single network, not multiple networks as all other methods
do (e.g., neural networks with error-backprop, genetic algorithms, and fuzzy sets). (Let me know if there are other methods where one network is optimal and therefore is free from the local minima problem.)<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> This single-network property is important because normally every developmental network (genome) must succeed in single-network development, from inception to birth, to death. <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> Post-selection: A human programer trains multiple (n>1) predictors based on a fit set F, and then picks up the luckiest predictor based on a validation set (which is in the
possession of the program). He suffers from the following two misconducts:<br>
Misconduct 1: Cheating in the absence of a test (because the test set T is absent).<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> Misconduct 2: Hiding bad-looking data (other less lucky predictors).<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> A. I told Asim that DN tests its performance from birth to death, across the entire life!<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> B. I told Asim that DN does not hide any data because it trains a single brain and reports all its lifetime errors! <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> Asim did not read our DN papers that I sent to him, or did not read them carefully, especially the proof of the maximum likelihood of DN-1. See Weng IJIS 2015,
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.scirp.org/journal/paperinformation?paperid=53728__;!!IKRxdwAv5BmarQ!aCvWF-PEaRtFT0lr5G-TVd1WSX7BloN_D524nbIUhctg9BC609q63-E91LYTCtXzoEQMZbkc5gnl53le6ch2TgX4$" target="_blank">
https://www.scirp.org/journal/paperinformation?paperid=53728</a>.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> At the banquet, I told Asim that the representation of DN is "distributed" like the brain and it collectively computes the maximum likelihood representation by very neuron using
a limited resource and a limited amount of life experience. I told him that every brain is optimal, including his brain, my brain, and Aldolf Hitler's brain. However, every brain has a different experience. However, Asim apparently did not understand me
and did not continue to ask what I meant by "distributed" maximum likelihood representation. Namely, every neuron incrementally computes the maximum likelihood representation of its own competition zone.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> Asim gave an expression about the maximum likelihood implying that every nonlinear objective function has many local minima! That seems to be a lack of understanding of my
proof in IJIS 2015.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> (1) I told Asim that every (positive) neuron computes its competitors automatically (assisted by its dedicated negative neuron), so that every (positive) neuron has a different
set of (positive) neuronal competitors. Because every neuron has a different competition zone, the maximum likelihood representation is distributed. <u></u><u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> (2) Through the distributed computing by all (limited number of) neurons that work together inside the DN, the DN computes the distributed maximum likelihood representations.
Namely, every (positive) neuron computes its maximum likelihood representation incrementally for its unique competition zone. This is proven in IJIS 2015, based on the dual-optimality of Lobe Component Analysis. Through the proof, you can see how LCA converts
a highly nonlinear problem for each neuron into a linear problem for each neuron, by defining observation as a response-weighted input (i.e., dually-optimal Hebbian learning). Yes, with this beautifully converted linear problem (inspired by the brain), neuronal
computation becomes computing an incremental mean through time in every neuron. Therefore, a highly nonlinear problem of computing lobe components becomes a linear one. We know that there is no local minima problem in computing the mean of a time sequence. <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> (3) As I presented in several of my IJCNN tutorials, neurons in DN start from random weights, but different random weights lead to the same network, because the initial weights
only change the neuronal resources, but not the resulting network.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> In summary, the equation that Asim listed is for each neuron, but each neuron has a different instance of the expression. There is no search, not that Asim implied (without
saying)! This corresponds to a holistic solution the 20-million dollar problems (i.e., the local minuma problem solved by the maximum-likelihood optimality). See <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/9892445__;!!IKRxdwAv5BmarQ!aCvWF-PEaRtFT0lr5G-TVd1WSX7BloN_D524nbIUhctg9BC609q63-E91LYTCtXzoEQMZbkc5gnl53le6cX7cdu2$" target="_blank">https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/9892445</a><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> However, all other learning algorithms have not solved this local minima problem. Therefore, they have to resort to trials and errors through training many predictors.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> Do you have any more questions?<br>
Best regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">-John<u></u><u></u></p>
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</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Jul 4, 2024 at 4:20<span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span>PM Asim Roy <<a href="mailto:ASIM.ROY@asu.edu" target="_blank">ASIM.ROY@asu.edu</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Dear All,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">There’s quite a bit of dishonesty here. John Weng can be accused of the same “misconduct” that he is accusing others of. He didn’t quite disclose
what we discussed at the banquet last night. He is hiding all that. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">His basic argument is that we pick the best solution and report results on that basis. In a sense, when you formulate a machine learning problem as
an optimization problem, that’s essentially what you are trying to do – get the best solution and weed out the bad ones. And HE DOES THE SAME IN HIS DEVELOPMENT NETWORK. When I asked him how his DN algorithm learns, he said it uses the maximum likelihood method,
which is an old statistical method (</span><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximum_likelihood_estimation__;!!IKRxdwAv5BmarQ!aCvWF-PEaRtFT0lr5G-TVd1WSX7BloN_D524nbIUhctg9BC609q63-E91LYTCtXzoEQMZbkc5gnl53le6RquWOgs$" target="_blank">Maximum
likelihood estimation - Wikipedia</a>). I quote from Wikipedia:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin:0in;background:white"><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(32,33,34);background:yellow">The goal of maximum likelihood estimation is to find the values of the model parameters that
<b><u>maximize the likelihood function over the parameter space</u></b>,</span><span style="color:black"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximum_likelihood_estimation*cite_note-:0-6__;Iw!!IKRxdwAv5BmarQ!aCvWF-PEaRtFT0lr5G-TVd1WSX7BloN_D524nbIUhctg9BC609q63-E91LYTCtXzoEQMZbkc5gnl53le6VGxpEh8$" target="_blank"><sup><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;background:yellow;text-decoration:none">[6]</span></sup></a></span><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(32,33,34);background:yellow"> that
is</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:0.5in;background:white">
<span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Cambria Math",serif;color:rgb(32,33,34);background:yellow">𝜃</span><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(32,33,34);background:yellow">^=argmax</span><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Cambria Math",serif;color:rgb(32,33,34);background:yellow">𝜃∈</span><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(32,33,34);background:yellow">Θ</span><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Cambria Math",serif;color:rgb(32,33,34);background:yellow">𝐿𝑛</span><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(32,33,34);background:yellow">(</span><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Cambria Math",serif;color:rgb(32,33,34);background:yellow">𝜃</span><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(32,33,34);background:yellow">;</span><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:"Cambria Math",serif;color:rgb(32,33,34);background:yellow">𝑦</span><span style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(32,33,34);background:yellow">) .</span><span style="color:black"><img border="0" width="32" height="32" style="width: 0.3333in; height: 0.3333in;" id="m_-5644802298790064250m_5595253539103318468m_8141965150575946098m_-8964341897756567755Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:ii_193413c3e844cff311" alt="{\displaystyle {\hat {\theta }}={\underset {\theta \in \Theta }{\operatorname {arg\;max} }}\,{\mathcal {L}}_{n}(\theta \,;\mathbf {y} )~.}"></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">So, by default, HE ALSO HIDES ALL THE BAD SOLUTIONS AND DOESN’T REPORT THEM. He never talks about all of this. He never mentions that I had talked
about this in particular.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">I would suggest that based on his dishonest accusations against others and, in particular, against one of the plenary speakers here at the conference,
that IEEE take some action against him. This nonsense has been going on for a longtime and it’s time for some action.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">By the way, I am not a member of IEEE. I am expressing my opinion only because he has falsely accused me also and I had enough of it. I have added
Danilo Mandic and Irwin King to the list.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Thanks,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Asim Roy</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Professor, Information Systems<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Arizona State University<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://search.asu.edu/profile/9973" target="_blank">Asim Roy | ASU Search</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/lifeboat.com/ex/bios.asim.roy__;!!IKRxdwAv5BmarQ!aCvWF-PEaRtFT0lr5G-TVd1WSX7BloN_D524nbIUhctg9BC609q63-E91LYTCtXzoEQMZbkc5gnl53le6QZXPE1y$" target="_blank">Lifeboat
Foundation Bios: Professor Asim Roy</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> Juyang Weng <</span><a href="mailto:juyang.weng@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">juyang.weng@gmail.com</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 3, 2024 5:54 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Russell T. Harrison <</span><a href="mailto:r.t.harrison@ieee.org" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">r.t.harrison@ieee.org</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Akira Horose <</span><a href="mailto:ahirose@ee.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">ahirose@ee.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">>;
Hisao Ishibuchi <</span><a href="mailto:hisao@sustech.edu.cn" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">hisao@sustech.edu.cn</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">>; Simon See <</span><a href="mailto:ssee@nvidia.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">ssee@nvidia.com</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">>;
Kenji Doya <</span><a href="mailto:doya@oist.jp" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">doya@oist.jp</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">>; Robert Kozma <</span><a href="mailto:rkozma55@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">rkozma55@gmail.com</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">>;
Simon See <</span><a href="mailto:Simon.CW.See@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Simon.CW.See@gmail.com</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">>; Yaochu Jin <</span><a href="mailto:Yaochu.Jin@surrey.ac.uk" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Yaochu.Jin@surrey.ac.uk</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">>;
Xin Yao <</span><a href="mailto:xiny@sustech.edu.cn" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">xiny@sustech.edu.cn</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">>; Asim Roy <</span><a href="mailto:ASIM.ROY@asu.edu" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">ASIM.ROY@asu.edu</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">>;
</span><a href="mailto:amdnl@lists.cse.msu.edu" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">amdnl@lists.cse.msu.edu</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> False "Great Leap Forward" in AI</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear Asim,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> It is my great pleasure to finally have somebody who argued with me about this important subject. I have attached the summary of this important issue in pdf.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> I alleged widespread false data in AI from the following two misconducts:<br>
Misconduct 1: Cheating in the absence of a test.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> Misconduct 2: Hiding bad-looking data.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> The following is a series of events during WCCI 2024 in Yokohama Japan.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">These examples showed that some active researchers in the WCCI community were probably not aware of the severity and urgency of the issue.<br>
July 1, in public eyes, Robert Cozma banned the chance for Simon See at NVidea to respond to my question pointing to a False "Great Leap Forward" in AI. <br>
July 1, Kenji Doya suggested something like "let misconduct go ahead without a correction" because the publications are not cited. But he still did not know that I alleged that AlphaFold as well as many almost all published Google's deep learning products
suffer from the same Post-Selection misconduct. <br>
July 1, Asim Roy said to me "We need to talk" but he did not stay around to talk. I had a long debate during the Banquet last night. He seems to imply that post-selections of few networks and hiding the performance information of the entire population
is "survival of the fittest". He did not seem to agree that all 3 billion human populations need to be taken into account in human evolution, at least a large number of samples like in human sensus.<br>
July 3, Yaochu Jin did not let me ask questions after a keynote talk. Later he seemed to admit that many people in AI only report the data they like.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> July 3, Kalanmoy Deb said that he just wanted to find a solution using genetic algorithms but did not know that his so-called solution did not have a test at all.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> July 1, I saw all books on the display on the Springer Table appear to suffer from Post-Selection misconduct.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> Do we have a false data flooded "Great Leap Forward" in AI? Why?<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> I welcome all those interested to discuss this important issue.<br>
Best regards,<br>
-John Weng<br>
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